Trey Smith
In his post from earlier today, Empty Words or Words from Character, fellow scribe Shawn Tedrow wrote,
I am not at all saying that we need to start doing a bunch of good works that would replicate our words. I am trying to say that it is quite easy to "talk about" this Tao stuff, void of experiencing Tao. Then these inexperienced words seem to put us in a trance as if "these words" represent spiritual growth and understanding. Words become the standard to measure spirituality. A talented poet would win at this game.In my own case -- and I believe it is just as true for Scott, Ta-Wan, the Baroness and Shawn too -- anything I share with you here in a written form is borne of experience. In fact, I would venture to say that ANY words ever written or spoken originate from experience. How could it be otherwise?
What we think, theorize and/or philosophize about has its roots in the worlds we live in. A person devoid of experience -- someone who lived in a vacuum -- would have no purpose in contemplating anything. Such a person would have no sense of self, no personal relationships, no job, no social life, no teachers and no books to read!
It is because of our interactions with others and our reflections on these interactions (which is just as true for an anti-social gent like myself) that we ponder issues like right or wrong, good or bad, god or no god, ethical or unethical, and just or unjust.
Sometimes, we point to specific events or occurrences as the impetus of a particular post. Something happens (or doesn't happen) and it sets the wheels of our minds in motion. Just as often, however, there is no one singular event or occurrence. The impetus is more an amalgamation of several different things, many of which we may not be conscious of at the time we write.
Put another way, I think it is impossible to write "inexperienced words." While it probably is true that some words and thoughts are most experienced than others, it does not follow that a person could write words devoid of any and all experience. Even a newborn baby -- if he or she could write -- has the experience of the womb!
One of the common traits that all humans share IS experience. Life itself is an experiential phenomena and words are one of the ways we share our experiences with others...whether you happen to be a talented poet or not.
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Going a bit further, who can adequately judge whether or not someone has experienced Tao (or God or enlightenment)? It is difficult enough for each of us to make these judgments about ourselves! Our minds are subjective entities and it can be very hard sometimes to figure out precisely what we feel, sense or experience.
It also isn't a static determination. How I might interpret a recent experience today may not be how I interpret it tomorrow or next week or next year. My reflections, thinking, contemplation or meditation will be impacted by all subsequent experiences.
Finally, words are nothing more than symbols -- approximations of what we each experience. How does one genuinely put into words the sensations of seeing the birth of a child, the death of a parent, the intimacy of love, the serenity of a piece of music or the stunning beauty of the "perfect" sunset?
I mean, really, who uses words to measure anything intrinsic anyway? From my perspective, Shawn has erected a strawman -- a position that none of the writers on this blog has suggested. If he doth protest to say he's not pointing at anyone here -- though he did specifically reference the underlying topic of this blog and its audience which includes the other authors -- then who IS he referring to? Himself? His next door neighbor? His dog? Who?
"Even a newborn baby -- if he or she could write -- has the experience of the womb!"
ReplyDeleteIndeed, but curious you should mention this. That "experience" where there were no words, concepts, cognition of the world outside the womb (except perhaps sound and other vibrations) is metaphorically what meditation attempts to recover. When I was young, I used to have a particular recurring dream, not a night terror, but an odd dream, not really pleasant, that was more like a flavor, a sensation, with nebulous geometry, but impossible to describe. I have come to think that it was a womb or birth memory.
And actually, the point of poetry, sacred texts, and literature as a whole, is to express and share "intrinsic" things, albeit always in a limited way. Hence the use of metaphor and other rhetorical devices.
It's also worth thinking about the use of mantras and chants, recitation of scriptures, to bring us to a certain state of consciousness beyond the mundane. If you know why you are doing this, it is useful; if you don't it's just blabbering. Dear Messy Buddha!
I certainly would agree that poetry, sacred texts and literature -- as well as art and music among other things -- are feeble attempts to share "intrinsic" experience. In my mind, however, sharing and measuring are two different things altogether.
DeleteI did not and never would say "feeble." Noble is more like it. I suppose "convey" would be a better word, which suggests sharing a measure of something.
DeleteTrey,
ReplyDeleteIn many regards I agree with what you are saying. Yes, we say words to try and describe what we are experiencing. Based upon what you are saying, all people are speaking words from an experience.
But what you are saying and referring to, though you use similar words as mine, is not what I was pointing to. To suggest that what I was saying as being uniquely flawed is not shared but many others. The concept of speaking about spiritual matters without experiencing what one is saying is a common theme. I would like to claim that I have a unique revelation but I can't. Religious movements throughout history reflect what I am referring to. A light shines in a spiritual movement and within time that light loses it luster as followers begin "talking about" the light instead of BEING the light.
This is simple fundamental basic teaching Trey. Why would you go to such great length to oppose what is common novice language that I offered?
At the end of my post I say, “Who knows? Maybe I am just going through a personal observation and I am projecting it outward." If you read your last paragraph it would appear that you never read my statement here as you appear determined to see things through the lens of a biased perspective.
It appears to me that you are coming from a place of super-hypersensitivity and far-reaching defensiveness. What else could I conclude?
The majority isn't always right (or wrong, for that matter). Just because a lot of people -- particularly religious adherents -- have voiced a certain perspective doesn't mean that it's a correct one. Besides, even if we were to agree that it IS a correct perspective, you still need to claim ownership of your own opinions!
DeleteI fail to see why asking you what the impetus for this post is has to do with super hypersensitivity and defensiveness. Why are you so hypersensitive and defensive anytime a commenter asks you a question? Rather than supplying a straightforward answer, you have a penchant for attacking the person who poses the query. It is a tried and true method for attempting to sidetrack a discussion.
Unless you live in a vacuum, something must spur you to write any of these posts. While I would certainly agree that each of us cannot always pinpoint the exact causation every single time, most of the time we are reacting to something we read, heard, did or in some way experienced.
So, what was the impetus for you to write your post assailing what you perceive as "today's spirituality?" Who are the purveyors of it?
Trey,
ReplyDeleteYou have brought up the subject or implied more than once that I am directing these messages at the authors of the Rambling Taoist. Though on a private email I explained to you in detail that this is not the case and you said let's agree to disagree. But here it is again. The reason why I think you are behaving defensive is that you are obviously coming from a place of protecting the clan. You have been acting very hypersensitive related to this. You can't let go of this.
Instead of realizing this is what you are doing, you turn it around that I am being defensive by saying you are defensive. You state, "Why are you so hypersensitive and defensive anytime a commenter asks you a question?" With exception of our recent conflicts, please show me examples of me being defensive to a comment someone has said. Why would you say what isn't true? It is very difficult to have a discussion if you are going to make untrue statements like this as a reference point of topic.
Trey, your first paragraph in this most recent comment of yours is nothing but elusive words. Do you really want me to respond to such water downed evasiveness? Of course it is my opinion and it is also supported by many others. Why the double talk about the majority can be wrong? All I am saying is what I said is not uniquely flawed, which you implied it was in your post. Go ahead and say this is another example of me being defensive but I do not know another way of answering your questions but by giving you an answer back.
All I know is I offered two writings lately and you are acting very defensive in response to them with both being referenced about the authors of the Rambling Taoist. With my last one I shared a simple spiritual principal that is common language amongst many spiritual peers and you were all over it with accusations that I was bringing up something uniquely mine with suspicious implications. Read your last paragraph of your post Trey. You have a biased misinformed agenda. It is very difficult to communicate with you when you have such determination.
Trey, I invite you to probe into my motives. I don't have a problem with that. I believe that it is healthy to allow ourselves to have our ego's challenged by another person. It appears to me that you do not want this challenging effect to take place with the inner-circle authors of the Rambling Taoist. You are like a mother bear protecting its cubs while someone unknowingly accidentally walked by.
I would like to disengage with discussing this with you anymore as it is just becoming a theatrical play on words. If you wish to respond to this comment go ahead but I will not respond back.
What obfuscation! Your non-answer clearly shows why I am frustrated with you. I ask you a simple question -- one I have asked several times before -- and you steadfastly sidestep it.
DeleteIt would be one thing if you merely refused to answer it, but you won't even address it. Instead of answering the question, you play pop psychologist as a mechanism to avoid the questions altogether.
At this point, all I can say is that your steadfast refusal to answer simple questions bewilders the hell out of me. It makes me think you're hiding something. What that could be, I have no clue of (though I am formulating suspicions). It is natural to grow suspicious when people go out of their way not to share what should be rather innocuous information.
What makes this even more galling is that you yourself ask a lot of questions in comments to posts and you demand answers. But, when the shoe is on the other foot, your expectations change dramatically.
Why do you feel threatened by simple questions? Why won't you answer who your recent posts are addressing specifically? What is so difficult about sharing the impetus for your recent diatribes about "today's spirituality?"
A change of mind. I feel obliged to answer you. I am glad that you ended this comment with the question that you were talking about. I was sitting scratching my head about what you are talking about until your last sentence. That simple question went right over my head as my attention was focusing on everything else you were saying. I have no problem answering your question.
ReplyDeleteMy impetus for what I wrote comes from observations that go back as far as thirty-five years ago until recent. I have been involved with the spiritual search for a long time. I have been with groups and have also read a lot of books during this time. This subject has visited me many times throughout these years. It is not a new subject though at times it grabs my whole attention as if it is new. During these times, everything seems out of whack. It looks like everything is a big act, especially spiritual words that are spoken. My spiritual words become in question along with other people's words. It is a time of deep self-reflection. I hear words like harmony and they appear to be nothing but a sermon being preached by someone that is not living in harmony. Words we say and reality are not aligning together but words become something bigger than they are. They replace or act in substitution for a reality based life that is lived. Saying cool lofty words about spiritual realms of dimensions are more important than a life lived representing those words. I begin seeing that it should be the other way around. Thus I wrote the post.
Now why couldn't you have shared this eye-opening info in the post itself? Why do you thrive on ambiguity?
DeleteThis might have served as an object lesson for the writing of future posts. but alas...