Trey Smith
The motto of the Boy Scouts is "Be Prepared." It's not a bad motto as it would behoove each of us to be better prepared for all the different variables that life can and will throw at us. The prepared person is the one who is far more apt to deal successfully with changing circumstances. The ill-prepared person is the one who gets thrown off their game due to the slightest variation of expectations.
In order to prepare ourselves for any act or endeavor, we must understand and recognize the basic parameters of the situation. As is often the case, we THINK we understand and recognize all of the key variables when, in fact, we don't, but as long as we understand and recognize a few of them we have a much better chance of successfully navigating through and around the circumstances we find.
As suggested in the previous post, there is one endeavor that none of us can really prepare for: our own death. In some situations, we certainly can get our affairs in order and say goodbye to our loved ones, but once the boat leaves port, we have no idea whatsoever where it is going OR if it goes anywhere at all.
What we lack is an inkling of the parameters of death. All we think we know is that death is not life, but we don't know if that means that death is the opposite of life, something sort of similar to life or something we simply cannot begin to fathom. With all the variables unknown, there is no realistic way to prepare for crossing the bar.
While I understand this notion rationally, it is difficult for me to deal with emotionally. Due to my autism, I work diligently in my routine existence to try to prepare myself for all sorts of scenarios and outcomes. As long as I have imagined or envisioned a response or outcome and then I encounter something similar, I tend to get through the situation okay. When I meet circumstances that I am not prepared for, I behave like a deer caught in the headlights. I just sort of freeze because I don't have the faintest notion of what to do.
What keeps me awake some nights is the understanding that we are incapable of preparing for the exact process of death. I have this fear that I will make the situation worse or somehow screw it up! Yes, that most likely is an irrational fear, but I possess it, nonetheless.
Like a lot of people -- maybe ALL people -- the very thought of my own death made me very squeamish when I was younger. Death itself no longer scares me that much, but I'm still terrified at the process of leaving life for death. The process frightens me because I don't know the parameters involved and I realize that I can't (or may never) know until after it has already occurred and, at that point, it's too damn late to make a difference.
Neidan.
ReplyDeleteThat doesn't address the question of parameters at all.
DeleteThe practice of neidan is to explore those parameters.
ReplyDeleteIt's exploring death from the perspective of life...which doesn't understand the parameters.
DeleteIt would be like me describing a place to you that neither of us ever had visited. Not only had we not visited this place, no one else had either. The best I could do was tell you what I imagined that place would be like without having any way to know if my imagination matched up with reality.
Everything we know is from the perspective of life, which is essentially conscious awareness, and it couldn't be any other way. Methinks Trey Smith doesn't understand the parameters of life. Could be that you are indeed mentally retarded, incapable of understanding the most basic truths staring you right in the face. It could be that you are a loon. Completely hopeless. Lost. Incapable of enlightenment. The walking dead. Or maybe not. I'm not saying you are, just making a hypothesis.
DeleteJust as we know the sun from the perspective of earth, we know death from the perspective of life. Your assumption is that life cannot know death, but what if death is not an end, but a transformation into something different, a different form of life...what then? You seem to think that death is the end of everything, and therefore the cessation of awareness, but that too is purely theoretical, and therefore could be wrong. That doesn't mean all theories are wrong though.
Also, what makes you so sure that the author's of neidan did not have personal experience of death? Your assumption is that they didn't, that they imagined it, but what if they actually experienced it, solved the riddles of the ages, transcended death, died and came back to life again, truly, completely, what then?
Also, the Tao Te Ching was written by humans, what makes you so sure that he/she/they understood the parameters of which they spoke? Unless you think the Tao te Ching is the infallible word of God, it was written by human beings right, and what the fuck do they know? Apparently more than you give them credit for.
Neidan is at the heart of Taoism, and yet, you refuse to explore it, why?
The very first sentence of your comment, "Everything we know is from the perspective of life, which is essentially conscious awareness, and it couldn't be any other way" goes to the very heart of my thesis. If, and this is a big if, death does not entail "conscious awareness," then it would be impossible to understand its parameters.
DeleteThe only bone I have to pick with your comment is the statement, "You seem to think that death is the end of everything..." I wrote nothing of the sort. You should reread Paragraph #4 of the post.
You said: "If, and this is a big if, death does not entail "conscious awareness," then it would be impossible to understand its parameters."
DeleteThat's the whole point, that it's fruitless to even entertain that line of thinking, because knowing and understanding requires awareness. And if you seek to understand, to prepare for death, resources ARE available, neidan is one of them. Otherwise, It's a waste of time and energy attempting to know the unknowable. Why even talk about it then. Sometimes when you do not like the answers you're getting, you need to ask different questions. No point in asking questions that lead to dead ends. "impossible" is a dead end; the cessation of conscious awareness is a dead end. Absolutely nothing good comes from contemplating things in those terms.
"Absolutely nothing good comes from contemplating things in those terms." I agree and that's what I don't contemplate such things.
DeleteI somewhat regret mentioning the word but I couldn't resist even though I know Trey does not have a regular meditation practice and does not have a facility for the metaphors in the neidan texts. Neidan is one method Taoists use to study life and death. I only brought it up because I do not want casual readers to think Trey's apprehensions about death and dying are typical in the Taoist community, where cultivation of life and preparation for death are part of serious physical, mental/emotional and spiritual practice.
ReplyDeleteApprehensions about death and dying are common to ALL people.
DeleteIf someone came up with the ideas of nei dan and wrote them in Wikipedia then they'd be delete in seconds for being unsubstantiable original research with no support.
ReplyDeleteIdeas written down when the very same people thought the world was flat are not valid just because they are old. They are still just ideas. The way forward in understanding is with real and new, falsifiable, science.
I could go on about death in my own way and anyone can but what Trey rightly says is that we can't know for sure. Certainly by reading the words of people who said the spleen forms intentions and not that it aids in purifying blood are not so useful. I'd rather look to modern science for the answers to such matters.
On this blog we focus on the core philosophy of Taoism which is genuine wisdom to aid anyone of any persuasion. Ideas of nei dan are ancient mumbo jumbo, provably false.
Yeah, let's get drunk, bud, real mumble jumble, eh? you by any chance, schizophrenic, acid head, etc. ....I'm assuming you haven't much discipline, no personal experience beyond an amateurishness second in neitan, eh?...way too much clout round here I say for a fucking blond hear blue eyed "Taoist" poseur...you sure you ain't a Carney Ta Wan? (you made in Taiwan or something, you fucking deranged lunatic?) a snake oil salesman, a fucking socialist Romney? pawning shit as if it were the truth, just because you hide behind an oriental name... a Taoist name? I'm calling the bullshit of this blog, the rambling loons more like it...ain't that the truth?
DeleteWhy don't you call yourselves the rambling spaghetti monsters, you'll grin like that's funny, but the truth is you're both fucked up in the head, not Taoists, but loons, one damaged by drugs, the other, by faulty brain chemistry (ie...bad genes). Yeah.
Hmm. Sounds to me like you have some anger management issues.
Deletefinally, the one subject in which you may authoritatively speak from personal experience. In other words, it takes one to know one, eh? Is that all you got to say? One liners are sooo easy. by the way, how's that neidian going for you...no comprende senor?
Delete-- "Ideas written down when the very same people thought the world was flat are not valid just because they are old."
DeleteWouldn't that apply to Taoism as a whole then, not just Dandian (Internal Alchemy)?
Then again, just because the status quo of the day believed in a flat earth, at least according to the official historical record, does not necessarily mean that it was a belief shared by everyone at that time. For instance, I have many unconvential beliefs, interests, and theories that are not shared by popular culture. Native american cosmology understood the earth to be spherical at a time when a large portion of the world, including western science, didn't. Which means how can you be so sure that the inventors of nandian believed the earth was flat, just because they lived at a time when that was a popularly held belief? And even if they did believe that, that doesn't necessarily discredit everything else they said too.
Just because it's old, doesn't make it invalid, just because it's new, doesn't make it better. Could be that some of the science of today, will be considered mumbo jumbo tomorrow (meaning decades or centuries from now), but that doesn't mean all of it will. Things are always changing, but not necessarily always improving.
It's funny how each new generation thinks they know more than the last, but that's not always the case. There is both evolution and devolution.
--- "Certainly by reading the words of people who said the spleen forms intentions and not that it aids in purifying blood are not so useful."
It is possible that both could be aspects of the spleens functions, one a psychological component, the other a physical component. It is after all, very difficult to quantify subtle pyschological influences, but that does not necessarily disprove them. How can you be so sure that there is not a connection between the purification of blood and the forming of intentions?
-- "On this blog we focus on the core philosophy of Taoism which is genuine wisdom to aid anyone of any persuasion."
Funny. But when you give your interpretation of Taoism, it is no longer necessarily genuine wisdom. The writings on this blog, are not equal to the writings of lao tzu, just because you call yourselves Taoists. What makes either of you the authority on Taoism? And to reject nantian as mumbo jumbo, I think that's a very uncommon point of view in the published (as in real books, not blogs, or self-published ebooks) Taoist community. If a person wants to understand Taoism better, they'd be better off reading the core texts themselves, not theories written by Ta Wan, with the pretension that because they are newer, they are better. It's funny how you seem to imply that you offer something new and improved here, when actually, quite ironically, much of what Tao Wan has posted reads a lot like mumbo jumbo to me. Especially the part about you never having been born and never dying. Yeah, it's there, if you look. Frankly this blog is very montonous, most of your posts are just a rewording of the same things, nothing very original, and do we really need another new version of the tao te ching? I mean, enough already. How many more times are you going to reinvent the wheel?
Thank you for making the Rambling Taoists' position clear. I'm outta here. Again. Still, parting shot... a little xin zhai and zuowang (if not neidan) does help deal with things like chronic pain, anxiety, stress, and all the entanglements of the world (like politics) more than talking obsessively about them. Wishing you all wu wei and wu shi.
ReplyDeleteFor my part, I didn't diss neidan any more than any other theory concerning death. I'm sure it is helpful to some people in the areas you mention, but we weren't discussing those aspects. The question was: Can anyone prepare for something that they have no way of knowing about? I say no.
Delete