the skillful reckoner uses no tallies;For me, this line could be summed up as the antithesis of "You scratch my back and I'll scratch yours."
~ James Legge translation, from The Sacred Books of the East, 1891 ~
A good reckoner needs no tally.
~ Gia-fu Feng and Jane English translation, published by Vintage Books, 1989 ~
Good reckoning does not use counters
~ Derek Lin translation, from Tao Te Ching: Annotated & Explained, published by SkyLight Paths, 2006 ~
Do complicated math problems in your head.
~ Ron Hogan rendition, from Beatrice.com, 2004 ~
When we do things for others solely based upon what we expect to receive in return, all of our actions are based on self-interest. If we always put our own interests first, then everyone else gets the short shrift.
Lao Tzu counsels us to do what needs to be done in any given situation and not to expect anything in return. If we receive a return, fine. If we don't receive anything in return, that's fine too.
To view the Index page for this series to see what you may have missed or would like to read again, go here.
Not sure where you're getting this "antithesis" interpretation. I see these lines (1,2,3) about being skilled (by being intuitive and open). I don't see the critique of self-interest here.
ReplyDeleteUnless you're seeing "tally" as something like a "score,"
Thomas Cleary says it very simply:
"Good works are trackless, good words are flawless, good planning isn't calculating."
Yes, a tally generally means a score or to keep track of.
ReplyDeleteI should also note that in Star's concordance, the operative word is ch'ou: counting, tally, calculate or counter. No mention of tracks at all.
ReplyDeleteThis is not to suggest that Cleary is off-base. It only goes to show that different translators often see each line in a different light.
Don't get me wrong, I like this series. But times like this is when I find it less than useful : I find myself having to look up the chapter so as to get the context of the line, which is often a guide in the understanding.
ReplyDeleteI think in context this has less to do with keeping track of who's up and who's down, or what have you done for me lately, and instead, as baroness said, about skill or, as I see it, being fully *there*. Like, the line about a good thinker not making slips: if he's thinking ahead or about other things, he's going to slip, but if he's really there saying the words, his speech will flow clear and perfect.
The "tracks" is from line 1; Cleary compresses all three in to one line.
ReplyDeleteI don't see chou as score; "tally" here is just to add up, to count. (Tally me bananas...). The tally could be an abacus. (Or in this case, not.)
I still don't see the "self-interest" issue in these lines.
D.T. Suzuki offers a title for the verse and the (poetic) first three lines:
ReplyDeleteTHE FUNCTION OF SKILL.
"Good travelers leave no trace nor track,
Good speakers, in logic show no lack,
Good counters need no counting rack. "
Isn't that the beauty of works like the TTC? Different people learn different lessons at different times.
ReplyDeleteBaroness,
ReplyDeleteUtilizing the three interpretations cited, the word, tally, must be taken in reference to reckoning -- to figure up a sum due on a bill.
When someone does work for you, they provide services in the expectation of some sort of renumeration. That's the point I was focusing on.
That said, I see nothing inconsistent with the way you read it. The difference between your understanding and mine is simply based on different perspectives.
Thjank you for clarifying yours. I need to go home and study that character.
ReplyDeleteRe: ch'ou. It seems to be a very archaic character, not in general conversational use today. And I see no other translation which implies anything like scoring or billing. The "ch'ou ts'e" refers to counting slips, the forerunner to an abacus, according to Arthur Waley. So while there is an accounting sense, I don't think there is any reference in the line to services rendered.
ReplyDeleteI think tally should be understood only as in adding up something. The skilled person can do it without a tool. (The fluent person can speak without a dictionary.)
One needs to be very careful when doing extrapolations from a suggested English word. It turns it into a game of gossip (you know, when you whisper something in the next person's ear and it goes around in a circle and comes out the other end not quite right.).
I guess I'm saying your point is not well substantiated; the meaning isn't really there. It's not a matter of perspective; it's the actual connotation of the words.
Then how do you account for three different respected translators who each have translated the line with a form of the word, reckon?
ReplyDelete"Reckon" is in reference to the person doing the counting...a "reckoner",(shu) an accountant, a person doing the counting. The skilled counting person (shan shu) doesn't need a "tool" to do the calculations. That's all it (literally) means; you are reading something into the line that isn't there by extrapolating a sense from the English word that isn't there in the Chinese. Reckon in a basic sense is a perfectly good word that means to add up, calculate--perhaps a bill, but not necessarily. I reiterate, there is nothing here (in the Chinese) about bills or accounts or services rendered.
ReplyDeleteThere is also in some translations an element of planning and prediction in this line...so reckon could also be like--I reckon there'll be a storm..a sensitive person doesn't need a barometer to know a hurricane is coming.
Don't be so preoccupied with the meaning of reckoning; you're adding a social dimension to this line...that isn't there. Not that your commentary isn't "Taoist," it just doesn't have anything to do with this line. Although now I see that Jonathan Star says "gives without keeping an account." I don't know where he's coming from with this. He is equally unsubstantiated.
This will be an interesting thing to discuss with my Chinese teacher next month. (Although his own translation is "One who is good at tactics and divination uses no scheme or bamboo slips.")
See my comment re Lines 4-5.
ReplyDelete