This last section of the manuscript for The Book of Chen Jen is broken down into several posts. To see all the posts in chronological order, go to the Book of Chen Jen Index Page (scroll down to Section 3). For the sake of these posts, the questions posed by the interviewer, Sue-tzu, will be in bold and the answers by the author will appear as regular text.
A common theme in Chen Jen is this idea of ‘arising’ and you have used it already in this discussion. Can you tell me more about what you mean by ‘arising’?
This is the heart of wu wei — non-doing, or perhaps, non-intentional doing. When allowed to just be what they are, things do what they are. When a person is empty of self-identity, the innate nature of his humanity expresses itself as a matter of course. This is spontaneity — the unintentional arising of one’s humanity.
‘Wu-wei’ being a term used by Taoists. You seem very much influenced by Taoist thought. Is there any one work that has particularly inspired you?
Yes, what I like to call ‘philosophical Taoism’ — that is, non-religious Taoism — has pointed me in the direction I seem to be going. And Chuang-tzu is by far my favorite exponent of that philosophy. In fact, I have plagiarized him unconscionably throughout Chen Jen.
And that’s okay — to plagiarize Chuang-tzu’s work?
It’s all fiction. Who really wrote The Book of Chuang-tzu? There were many authors, no doubt. And who did they plagiarize from? Whoever they were, they made loose with the facts of history and put words in the mouths of those who either never existed or, if they did, would never have said them. But what difference does it make? Everything is many times removed from ‘fact’; everything is hidden behind veils of obscurity. And this is just as Chuang-tzu would have had them be. The less able we are to find a fact or personality to grasp upon, the better.
I have wondered about the term ‘dark sages’ which you frequently use to describe Chen Jen and his friends; is this what you mean—that they are obscure and hidden?
Yes. They have made it a point to remain as anonymous as possible. They have no followers and would flee should some seek to be so. The appellation is found in Chuang-tzu, variously translated as ‘dark sages’ or ‘obscure sages’. They are grouped together with ‘uncrowned kings’. Their greatness resides not in being known and applauded, but in remaining hidden and unknown. It’s not just that they do not seek fame, but that they would see it as falling short of the Tao to have it. For all our talk of the Tao, it remains unknown.
Are you getting hungry? Shall we break for lunch?
Yes, let’s do.
A common theme in Chen Jen is this idea of ‘arising’ and you have used it already in this discussion. Can you tell me more about what you mean by ‘arising’?
This is the heart of wu wei — non-doing, or perhaps, non-intentional doing. When allowed to just be what they are, things do what they are. When a person is empty of self-identity, the innate nature of his humanity expresses itself as a matter of course. This is spontaneity — the unintentional arising of one’s humanity.
‘Wu-wei’ being a term used by Taoists. You seem very much influenced by Taoist thought. Is there any one work that has particularly inspired you?
Yes, what I like to call ‘philosophical Taoism’ — that is, non-religious Taoism — has pointed me in the direction I seem to be going. And Chuang-tzu is by far my favorite exponent of that philosophy. In fact, I have plagiarized him unconscionably throughout Chen Jen.
And that’s okay — to plagiarize Chuang-tzu’s work?
It’s all fiction. Who really wrote The Book of Chuang-tzu? There were many authors, no doubt. And who did they plagiarize from? Whoever they were, they made loose with the facts of history and put words in the mouths of those who either never existed or, if they did, would never have said them. But what difference does it make? Everything is many times removed from ‘fact’; everything is hidden behind veils of obscurity. And this is just as Chuang-tzu would have had them be. The less able we are to find a fact or personality to grasp upon, the better.
I have wondered about the term ‘dark sages’ which you frequently use to describe Chen Jen and his friends; is this what you mean—that they are obscure and hidden?
Yes. They have made it a point to remain as anonymous as possible. They have no followers and would flee should some seek to be so. The appellation is found in Chuang-tzu, variously translated as ‘dark sages’ or ‘obscure sages’. They are grouped together with ‘uncrowned kings’. Their greatness resides not in being known and applauded, but in remaining hidden and unknown. It’s not just that they do not seek fame, but that they would see it as falling short of the Tao to have it. For all our talk of the Tao, it remains unknown.
Are you getting hungry? Shall we break for lunch?
Yes, let’s do.
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