This last section of the manuscript for The Book of Chen Jen is broken down into several posts. To see all the posts in chronological order, go to the Book of Chen Jen Index Page (scroll down to Section 3). For the sake of these posts, the questions posed by the interviewer, Sue-tzu, will be in bold and the answers by the author will appear as regular text.
Could we explore a bit your relationship with Chen Jen and his philosophy of life, as you have called it? Do you have a ‘philosophy of life’ and if so, how is it similar or dissimilar to that of Chen Jen?
Not anymore.
You had a philosophy, but you . . . lost it?
Yes. It’s more like I forgot it. There is Life. Life needs no philosophy. A philosophy of life, or ‘a way’, if you wish, is very much like the proverbial finger pointing at the moon; once you have seen your moon, you forget the finger.
You have seen the moon?
I have seen my moon. I know no ‘the moon’; just as I know no ‘The Way’. There is only that which arises from the surrendered heart and this does not prescribe for others. I have followed the teachings of my heart—this has been my path. When the path has been followed, what lies behind is forgotten.
I am struck by the radical individualism of your . . . approach. It comes through pretty clearly in Chen Jen, as well. Are we all on our own then, on this journey?
I can only speak from my own experience. No one else has ever shared my consciousness — within the context of my awareness I have only always been alone. Perhaps you have had a different experience?
No. Even my dearest intimacies have not penetrated my inner awareness.
This being so, it is your individual journey. That is not to say that we cannot have camaraderie along the way or that that camaraderie cannot be helpful. Yet what we most often see is co-dependence — the support of the ego-self through identification with a guru and his followers or with a certain system of ideas. Identity is identification — first with the ego-self and then, subsequently, with another self or a group of selves or with ideas and beliefs adhered to. Yet the loss of identity, in my experience, is at the heart of the transcendent experience.
I find Chuang-tzu’s allusion to a certain species of fish most helpful in this regard. These fish, he tells us, when their pond runs dry, gather together and slime each other until there is water once more. However laudable this may be, he suggests that it is a much better state of affairs when there is plenty of water and the fish forget each other in their enjoyment thereof. This ‘water’ represents the Tao, and its absence is not a given but the consequence of bondage to identity.
And the ‘slime’? What is this slime? It represents the teachings, ideologies, and beliefs whereby we attempt to compensate for the lack of Tao. We all can slime, but there are also those who have become master slimers. These are easily detectable because they have a message and followers who live thereby.
It is important to remember that every ‘message’ is something external to us. What am I to do with this ‘message’? It did not arise from my experience, but stands outside my experience. Am I to believe it? “Believe it — try it — you will experience it,” some might say. But I say that this is putting the cart before the horse and that it is the method which has led humanity in its entirety into bondage to one form of belief or another. Do you remember when you asked me about enlightenment and I asked you, given that you had not experienced it, where this idea, which you apparently believe in, came from? This is slime—one more concept to ‘unlearn’ before you can get on with your journey.
Can you describe something of what it’s like to see your moon?
What!? You need some slime!? No, I can’t describe it. And were I able, I would not do so. Follow your own heart; your path will arise.
Could we explore a bit your relationship with Chen Jen and his philosophy of life, as you have called it? Do you have a ‘philosophy of life’ and if so, how is it similar or dissimilar to that of Chen Jen?
Not anymore.
You had a philosophy, but you . . . lost it?
Yes. It’s more like I forgot it. There is Life. Life needs no philosophy. A philosophy of life, or ‘a way’, if you wish, is very much like the proverbial finger pointing at the moon; once you have seen your moon, you forget the finger.
You have seen the moon?
I have seen my moon. I know no ‘the moon’; just as I know no ‘The Way’. There is only that which arises from the surrendered heart and this does not prescribe for others. I have followed the teachings of my heart—this has been my path. When the path has been followed, what lies behind is forgotten.
I am struck by the radical individualism of your . . . approach. It comes through pretty clearly in Chen Jen, as well. Are we all on our own then, on this journey?
I can only speak from my own experience. No one else has ever shared my consciousness — within the context of my awareness I have only always been alone. Perhaps you have had a different experience?
No. Even my dearest intimacies have not penetrated my inner awareness.
This being so, it is your individual journey. That is not to say that we cannot have camaraderie along the way or that that camaraderie cannot be helpful. Yet what we most often see is co-dependence — the support of the ego-self through identification with a guru and his followers or with a certain system of ideas. Identity is identification — first with the ego-self and then, subsequently, with another self or a group of selves or with ideas and beliefs adhered to. Yet the loss of identity, in my experience, is at the heart of the transcendent experience.
I find Chuang-tzu’s allusion to a certain species of fish most helpful in this regard. These fish, he tells us, when their pond runs dry, gather together and slime each other until there is water once more. However laudable this may be, he suggests that it is a much better state of affairs when there is plenty of water and the fish forget each other in their enjoyment thereof. This ‘water’ represents the Tao, and its absence is not a given but the consequence of bondage to identity.
And the ‘slime’? What is this slime? It represents the teachings, ideologies, and beliefs whereby we attempt to compensate for the lack of Tao. We all can slime, but there are also those who have become master slimers. These are easily detectable because they have a message and followers who live thereby.
It is important to remember that every ‘message’ is something external to us. What am I to do with this ‘message’? It did not arise from my experience, but stands outside my experience. Am I to believe it? “Believe it — try it — you will experience it,” some might say. But I say that this is putting the cart before the horse and that it is the method which has led humanity in its entirety into bondage to one form of belief or another. Do you remember when you asked me about enlightenment and I asked you, given that you had not experienced it, where this idea, which you apparently believe in, came from? This is slime—one more concept to ‘unlearn’ before you can get on with your journey.
Can you describe something of what it’s like to see your moon?
What!? You need some slime!? No, I can’t describe it. And were I able, I would not do so. Follow your own heart; your path will arise.
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