As I've continued to discuss issues at Tough Questions Answered and here at TRT with Tyler, I am struck by the human parameters that these Christian men have placed on their own supreme being. Of course, it's not just them, this is part and parcel of the Christian perspective.
When something miraculous happens -- something that defies a rational explanation -- we're often told it represents the "hand of God" and that the great he can do far more than we mere humans could ever fathom. Yet, when these same believers encounter a skeptic like me and we start making probative points, the response gets back to more earthly terms whereby the actions of God are limited and restrained.
For example, in our discussion of the roots of evil and God's reluctance to eradicate it, Bill Pratt wrote, "What you fail to understand is that if God defeats evil now, then you are toast. People commit evil every day, so the only way to defeat evil is to get rid of people or at least quarantine them from the good."
And the logical question to this type of response is: Why? Why must God kill or quarantine us to rid evil from our hearts? Who's to say that he couldn't simply remove the evil and leave us be as we are now?
In this same vein, Tyler wrote in one of his responses to "Bogeyman", "He could create perfect beings that "lovingly" worship him day and night if he had decided too. However, this would be the same as programming your computer to send you "love" messages night and day."
How do we know that such a design would be similar to programming a computer? With this supposed God, all things are possible, so it's just as possible that he could have created us in a way to exude love all the time and it wouldn't be at all like a computer program.
Consider all the miraculous deeds this supposed almighty creator has wrought that defy human explanation.
When something miraculous happens -- something that defies a rational explanation -- we're often told it represents the "hand of God" and that the great he can do far more than we mere humans could ever fathom. Yet, when these same believers encounter a skeptic like me and we start making probative points, the response gets back to more earthly terms whereby the actions of God are limited and restrained.
For example, in our discussion of the roots of evil and God's reluctance to eradicate it, Bill Pratt wrote, "What you fail to understand is that if God defeats evil now, then you are toast. People commit evil every day, so the only way to defeat evil is to get rid of people or at least quarantine them from the good."
And the logical question to this type of response is: Why? Why must God kill or quarantine us to rid evil from our hearts? Who's to say that he couldn't simply remove the evil and leave us be as we are now?
In this same vein, Tyler wrote in one of his responses to "Bogeyman", "He could create perfect beings that "lovingly" worship him day and night if he had decided too. However, this would be the same as programming your computer to send you "love" messages night and day."
How do we know that such a design would be similar to programming a computer? With this supposed God, all things are possible, so it's just as possible that he could have created us in a way to exude love all the time and it wouldn't be at all like a computer program.
Consider all the miraculous deeds this supposed almighty creator has wrought that defy human explanation.
- He created the entire universe in 6 short days
- He instructed one fellow to build an ark and then flooded the earth
- He impregnated a woman who had not had sexual intercourse with a man and she bore a child
- He fed thousands of people with one loaf of bread and a few fish
- He raised his son from the dead
None of these phenomena can be explained through physics, biology or any other science known to humankind. So, if you believe all these things to be true, then you must concurrently acknowledge that God can do anything -- even things further beyond our comprehension.
So, it's just as easy to imagine that God could have created beings not prone to evil and unlike programming a computer or he could remove evil from our hearts without killing us. Either of these acts would be no more astonishing than impregnating a virgin!
In the end, you've got to go one way or the other on this issue. If you believe your God is all powerful, then you must accept the notion that anything -- whether you view it as conceivable or not -- is within the scope of possibility. It flies in the face of your own beliefs if you place limitations or parameters on what your God can and cannot do.
So, it's just as easy to imagine that God could have created beings not prone to evil and unlike programming a computer or he could remove evil from our hearts without killing us. Either of these acts would be no more astonishing than impregnating a virgin!
In the end, you've got to go one way or the other on this issue. If you believe your God is all powerful, then you must accept the notion that anything -- whether you view it as conceivable or not -- is within the scope of possibility. It flies in the face of your own beliefs if you place limitations or parameters on what your God can and cannot do.
Here we go again. (by the way, I'm not a Christian man, I'm a freshman in high school)
ReplyDeleteSo, it's just as easy to imagine that God could have created beings not prone to evil and unlike programming a computer
Can you explain how this is possible? Earlier in one of your posts you said Yet for free choice to be viable, different options must be available.
If we can only choose to love God, by your own logic (which I agree with) free will is not viable. If we have no free will, then as I previously stated, we are having a one way relationship with God. Without our freely choosing to love God (two-way relationship) our relationship is meaningless. He desired for there to be a 2-way relationship between us and Him. This is not possible if there is no free will.
Why? Why must God kill or quarantine us to rid evil from our hearts? Who's to say that he couldn't simply remove the evil and leave us be as we are now?
Actually, this will happen eventually according to Revelation. However, because of our sin, only those who accept Christ will be a part of this sinless new world. But as it says in 2 Peter 3:9- The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance. God could remove all traces of evil right now. Perhaps he will. But, if he did, because of his divine nature, he would have to allow those who remain in sin to go to hell.
If you believe your God is all powerful, then you must accept the notion that anything -- whether you view it as conceivable or not -- is within the scope of possibility. It flies in the face of your own beliefs if you place limitations or parameters on what your God can and cannot do.
I think that you are misunderstanding the Christian concept of God. These so called "limitations" are really perfections of God's nature. Let's start by examining what God cannot do.
---God cannot defy his nature, that is to say that he cannot do anything against his own will. This means, being a God of holiness, he cannot sin or even allow sin in his presence. It also means that he cannot do things that are illogical. He cannot make a square circle. He cannot make 2+2=10. He cannot create something bigger or more powerful than himself. this is because of his divine nature, which he built into the world around us. Back to the supposed "perfections" which I have mentioned. You assert that God should be able to make free will-less humans who have a meaningful relationship with God. However, you must prove that that scenario is even a bona fide possibility. It's like you're saying that because God can't make logic and the number 4 perform the tango together, he can't be all powerful. Does the concept of logic and 4 dancing even make any sense whatsoever? Of course not. If God could allow sin in his prescence, if he did allow evil to go unpunished, would he truly be a just God? Absolutely not! If God created an object bigger than himself, would he truly be omnipresent?
These "limitations" are not placed on God by anyone. They are in fact, part of God's divine nature and are what make him perfect.
Can you explain how this is possible?
ReplyDeleteNope, but then I'm not the Christian God.
I will provide a further response in a post coming later today.
God cannot defy his nature, that is to say that he cannot do anything against his own will.
Because of the mystery, we don't comprehensively know what that nature is.
It also means that he cannot do things that are illogical.
A virgin giving birth is illogical. Creating the entirety of the universe in 6 days is illogical. Obviously, God is quite able to perform feats that TO HUMANS are completely illogical.
But what you seem to be missing is that God's logic must be altogether different than our logic OR he couldn't have done these things that you believe he did.
He cannot create something bigger or more powerful than himself...
Sure he could have, if he wanted to.
Does the concept of logic and 4 dancing even make any sense whatsoever? Of course not.
It might not make sense to you or me, but that's because we're confined to what can be imagined by the human brain. Who is to say that it would not make perfect sense to an all knowing being?
God cannot defy his nature, that is to say that he cannot do anything against his own will.
ReplyDeleteBecause of the mystery, we don't comprehensively know what that nature is.
Actually, the Bible informs us that God is love, God is perfect, God is just, God is a "jealous" God, He is all powerful etc.
A virgin giving birth is illogical. Creating the entirety of the universe in 6 days is illogical. Obviously, God is quite able to perform feats that TO HUMANS are completely illogical.
But what you seem to be missing is that God's logic must be altogether different than our logic OR he couldn't have done these things that you believe he did.
Yeah... um do you know what logic is? When God did those things, he didn't violate the laws of noncontradiction or identity. He violated natural laws. Violating the laws of physics or thermodynamics has absoulutely nothing to do with- Two diametrically opposed statements cannot both be true.
He cannot create something bigger or more powerful than himself...
Sure he could have, if he wanted to.
Um.. as I have stated earlier, if God could create something more powerful than himself, he would not be all powerful. If he is all powerful, than his power is infinite. But to create a number bigger than infinite doesn't make sense. Also, if God could create something bigger than himself, then that thing would have to occupy more space than God thus nullifying God's omnipresence.
Does the concept of logic and 4 dancing even make any sense whatsoever? Of course not.
It might not make sense to you or me, but that's because we're confined to what can be imagined by the human brain. Who is to say that it would not make perfect sense to an all knowing being?
As you have offered no proof or evidence to refute my claim, I will respond with the following- Who's to say that it would make sense to an all knowing being?
Actually, the Bible informs us that God is love, God is perfect, God is just, God is a "jealous" God, He is all powerful etc.
ReplyDeleteThose are just words! IF God exists, we know next to nothing about him. We don't even know what he literally is -- a spirit, a nebulous, a force field, a black hole, etc. And even if we could assign one of those words, we still can't comprehend what that genuinely is.
For example, what IS love? It's not something you can hold in your hand. It's not something you can take a photo of. It's not something you can prove mathematically. The best way we humans can describe it is as a feeling. So, are you saying that you believe God is a feeling?
Two diametrically opposed statements cannot both be true.
That appears to be correct AS FAR AS HUMAN INTELLECT GOES, but we're talking about something that dwarfs human intellect. Consequently, your statement above ultimately may or may not be true.
Um.. as I have stated earlier, if God could create something more powerful than himself, he would not be all powerful. If he is all powerful, than his power is infinite. But to create a number bigger than infinite doesn't make sense. Also, if God could create something bigger than himself, then that thing would have to occupy more space than God thus nullifying God's omnipresence.
Let's see. The relationship between God and humankind is often likened to that of a parent to his children. Many parents make great sacrifices to ensure that their children will have a better life than they did -- more education, more opportunities, more money.
So, why couldn't a benevolent God create something with the potential to be greater than he?
As you have offered no proof or evidence to refute my claim, I will respond with the following- Who's to say that it would make sense to an all knowing being?
I can't offer proof and neither can you because the kind of proof or evidence needed is beyond human capabilities.
In the end, no one can say if what is seemingly illogical to the human mind is or is not logical to the cosmic mind.
Those are just words! IF God exists, we know next to nothing about him. We don't even know what he literally is -- a spirit, a nebulous, a force field, a black hole, etc. And even if we could assign one of those words, we still can't comprehend what that genuinely is.
ReplyDeleteUm.. yeah we know next to nothing about God except for all those descriptions of his nature that I just listed. "they are just words". Um... yeah, words that describe to us what God is like. Does it matter that we don't know what God "literally is"? What he literally is is way beyond human comprehension. I only assert that we can learn things about God's character and his nature. However, as I have already stated, we can't know everything.
For example, what IS love? It's not something you can hold in your hand. It's not something you can take a photo of. It's not something you can prove mathematically. The best way we humans can describe it is as a feeling. So, are you saying that you believe God is a feeling?
Wow. consider the following: I am kind. uhoh, does that mean I think I am a feeling? or does it simply mean that I exhibit the quality of kindness? Oh and by the way, what is mathematics? It's not something you can hold in your hand. It's not something you can take a photo of. It's not something you can prove mathematically. The best way we can describe math is--- a manifestation of God's nature that he built into this world. If God does not exist, how do we describe math?
That appears to be correct AS FAR AS HUMAN INTELLECT GOES, but we're talking about something that dwarfs human intellect. Consequently, your statement above ultimately may or may not be true.
What's funny about what you've said is that if the law of noncontradiction is not true, then your statement can be both true and false. You just said that the law of noncontradiction may not be true for God yet you claim that this statement is true for all. So then it is true that my statement is true. It is also false that my statement is true. Haha good logic.
Let's see. The relationship between God and humankind is often likened to that of a parent to his children. Many parents make great sacrifices to ensure that their children will have a better life than they did -- more education, more opportunities, more money.
So, why couldn't a benevolent God create something with the potential to be greater than he?
Yeah um.. somehow that sounds like Mormon theology to me. He couldn't do that because he is omnipotent. If anything were to be more powerful than him, he would cease to be omnipotent, and cease to be God. Plus, the whole God-father us-children is called a metaphor. It does not refer to God's power but the fact that he loves us as a parent loves there child. So much in fact that he died on the cross for our sins.
In the end, no one can say if what is seemingly illogical to the human mind is or is not logical to the cosmic mind.
Do you think that statement makes sense to God/the cosmic mind? Because if not, why did you say it? If so, then you've just self-defeated yourself
Um.. yeah we know next to nothing about God except for all those descriptions of his nature that I just listed. "they are just words". Um... yeah, words that describe to us what God is like.
ReplyDeleteYou really think that an entity as great and vast as God can be described adequately with a handful of words and sentences? That absolutely blows my mind.
Your second response completely sidestepped my question. You did a good job talking all around the issue, but you never addressed the specific point at all.
What's funny about what you've said is that if the law of noncontradiction is not true, then your statement can be both true and false.
I don't back away from it. It's my subjective opinion.
Yeah um.. somehow that sounds like Mormon theology to me. He couldn't do that because he is omnipotent. If anything were to be more powerful than him, he would cease to be omnipotent, and cease to be God.
Again, that makes sense to the HUMAN MIND, but I'm talking about the limited human mind. We simply don't know if that is possible or not in a cosmic sense.
The difference between you & I is that you have a very narrow definition of your God, while I have a very expansive and open-ended acceptance of Tao.
Oops! The first sentence of the second to the last paragraph should read: Again, that makes sense to the HUMAN MIND, but I'm NOT talking about the limited human mind.
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteAgreed! nice post, may I drop a link in here? Hope it's not rude :) I would like to show you one of my posts where I kicked God straight in his imaginary nutsack (so to speak) beyond that god dude
ReplyDeleteNot spam, honest, I think you'll like it.