From time to time, as I traverse about the blogosphere, I come upon a "Christian" blog. Most of the time, I quickly exist and return to my search. On occasion, however, a post title will jump out at me and I will feel compelled to read it and, possibly, leave a comment. This happened the other day at a blog called Tough Questions Answered.
The post that caught my eye was "Does God Take People's Lives?" If you're interested in viewing the back-and-forth dialog, I suggest you go there.
In the course of the discussion, one of the most troubling aspects for me of the Judeo-Christian belief system was raised -- where does evil originate? I have always found the answers proffered by the true believers to be anything but convincing. In fact, their explanations seem to be a labrynth of contradictions.
From their perspective, God is the source of all things. Initially, there was only God and a great void. At some point in time and for his own reasons, God decided to create life. He created the heavens and earth plus all life forms. So, God is the source of everything.
It would follow then that God is the source of evil. If there was once nothing but God and evil now exists in the world, it seems logical to deduce that evil came from God.
Hold on! Christians will tell you that God didn't create evil. If we accept this explanation at face value, then this means God is not the source of all things -- one of their key beliefs. So, if God didn't create evil, where did it come from?
The blogger at Tough Questions Answered says that God gave man free choice and evil sprung from that. Yet for free choice to be viable, different options must be available. If humankind was only provided with one choice -- goodness or love -- then the concept of free will would be meaningless. So, if we are provided with the choice of choosing between good or evil, it again becomes logical to deduce that God created both options and evil is one of the two.
Besides, as I pointed out in our back-and-forth discussion, if we accept the argument that humankind, in fact, created evil, then that would suggest we're just as powerful as God because we would have created a pervasive and dynamic force that counters goodness.
Of course, no Christian would make this argument because God is great and the rest of us are chumps.
In the end, I have yet to hear a salient explanation of how evil can exist in the world and yet God is not responsible for it.
The post that caught my eye was "Does God Take People's Lives?" If you're interested in viewing the back-and-forth dialog, I suggest you go there.
In the course of the discussion, one of the most troubling aspects for me of the Judeo-Christian belief system was raised -- where does evil originate? I have always found the answers proffered by the true believers to be anything but convincing. In fact, their explanations seem to be a labrynth of contradictions.
From their perspective, God is the source of all things. Initially, there was only God and a great void. At some point in time and for his own reasons, God decided to create life. He created the heavens and earth plus all life forms. So, God is the source of everything.
It would follow then that God is the source of evil. If there was once nothing but God and evil now exists in the world, it seems logical to deduce that evil came from God.
Hold on! Christians will tell you that God didn't create evil. If we accept this explanation at face value, then this means God is not the source of all things -- one of their key beliefs. So, if God didn't create evil, where did it come from?
The blogger at Tough Questions Answered says that God gave man free choice and evil sprung from that. Yet for free choice to be viable, different options must be available. If humankind was only provided with one choice -- goodness or love -- then the concept of free will would be meaningless. So, if we are provided with the choice of choosing between good or evil, it again becomes logical to deduce that God created both options and evil is one of the two.
Besides, as I pointed out in our back-and-forth discussion, if we accept the argument that humankind, in fact, created evil, then that would suggest we're just as powerful as God because we would have created a pervasive and dynamic force that counters goodness.
Of course, no Christian would make this argument because God is great and the rest of us are chumps.
In the end, I have yet to hear a salient explanation of how evil can exist in the world and yet God is not responsible for it.
Wow. this would be really compelling if Christians really thought that God was the source of everything. For instance, God did not create himself. He also did not create sin. You said
ReplyDeleteIf humankind was only provided with one choice -- goodness or love -- then the concept of free will would be meaningless. So, if we are provided with the choice of choosing between good or evil, it again becomes logical to deduce that God created both options and evil is one of the two.
Well, kind of. God told us his instructions. We had the free will to obey him or not. Adam and Eve chose not to obey Him and so by eating the fruit, they gained the knowledge of good and evil. Technically, humans weren't even the first to sin. Lucifer (Satan) was the first one. He as well chose to disobey God and in doing so was the first one to exercise his free will to sin.
You also said
Besides, as I pointed out in our back-and-forth discussion, if we accept the argument that humankind, in fact, created evil, then that would suggest we're just as powerful as God because we would have created a pervasive and dynamic force that counters goodness.
Yeah that would make us as powerful as God if evil actually countered goodness. In the end, God wins. Satan loses. It's like the old cliche movies where good triumphs over evil.
Tyler,
ReplyDeleteFrom your own holy text, it reads, "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. The earth was without form and void...". So beyond God (of course, that's another conundrum -- where did God come from?), there was nothing. Nada. Zilch. No other thing existed.
Since it is believed that God always has been and always will be, he is removed from the equation of being created. Therefore, everything else below God was created by him and we can thus state that God is the source of all things.
As to the issue of free will, he created beings that could make choices. It is inherent in such a creation that different choices will be chosen. If he had desired that everyone make the same choice, then there would be no utility in free will.
Finally, you posit that good ultimately overcomes evil. Do you have any proof to back up this supposition? How do you know that God wins?
If we look at the world around us, the opposite seems to be true. Evil tends to defeat goodness.
The Rambling Taoist,
ReplyDeleteAs to the issue of free will, he created beings that could make choices. It is inherent in such a creation that different choices will be chosen. If he had desired that everyone make the same choice, then there would be no utility in free will.
If I understand you correctly, you seem to be saying that if God desired that no one sin, then there would be no use in having free will because people will sin. I agree that given free will, it is inherent (but not necessary) that people will sin. However, the fact that people will sin, does not mean that God doesn't want there to be no sin. God loved us so much that DESPITE our sin, he was willing to create us with the free will to choose him. you do not have a meaningful relationship with a robot that you have programmed. In the same way, God wished to have a meaningful relationship with us by giving us the ability to choose him. God also being the author of creation, has planned the universe in such a way that his will be done no matter what. In spite of our sin, God's greater purpose is accomplished. 28And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him,who have been called according to his purpose. Romans 8:28
So, God desires for there to be no sin. But at the same time, he knew that for us to enter into a meaningful relationship with him, he would have to allow sin and ultimately, would have to allow his son to die on the cross for our sins.
Finally, you posit that good ultimately overcomes evil. Do you have any proof to back up this supposition? How do you know that God wins?
Well, as a Christian I tend to believe the Bible and in all four gospels Jesus dies on the cross, overcomes death and sin; in
Revelations 20:13-15 it states that the devil and all those who reject Christ will be thrown into the lake of fire for all eternity.
If we look at the world around us, the opposite seems to be true. Evil tends to defeat goodness.
As a Taoist, by what moral standard do you claim that such things as good and evil even exist? What moral standard do you compare them too?
So, God desires for there to be no sin. But at the same time, he knew that for us to enter into a meaningful relationship with him he would have to allow sin...
ReplyDeleteWhy? If God is the embodiment of perfect love, why create beings that are not the embodiment of perfect love?
If you're suggesting that only a being who has sinned can ultimately understand this embodiment, then logic dictates that God too must have sinned somewhere along the line (creating us, perhaps?) since he understands it already.
The second part of your response doesn't answer the question. I didn't ask you what you believe; I asked you what you know. A belief is merely having faith in something you're not sure about.
Just a note, I don't necessarily agree with the concept of good and evil. I'm simply discussing this issue utilizing your terminology.
Why? If God is the embodiment of perfect love, why create beings that are not the embodiment of perfect love?
ReplyDeleteI just told you. He could create perfect beings that "lovingly" worship him day and night if he had decided too. However, this would be the same as programming your computer to send you "love" messages night and day. Would this "relationship" be as meaningful to you as one with someone who actually loves you? If God created us and we could only "love" him, he would be forcing us to love him. That's a one-way relationship. God desired for there to be a 'back and forth' -if you will- relationship. God therefore gave us free will so that this two-way relationship is made possible. However, he knew that if he gave us free will, we would sin. God's desire for us to have a meaningful relationship with him coupled with his omnipotence (and the fact that he knew that he could overcome the power of sin by dying on the cross) is why he chose to give us free will.
-Also, since God is the embodiment of perfect love; he would clearly not create creatures without the free choice to love him back. Forcing someone to love you is not love at all. Consider the following: A man loves his girlfriend very much. However, she doesn't love him back. (or for some reason it won't work out) If the boyfriend truly loved her, he would give up his own desires for her life and let her choose whatever makes her the happiest. In the same way, God loves us so much that he will allow us to choose our own eternity.
It's as the late C.S. Lewis once said- "There are only two kinds of people in the end. Those who say to God, thy will be done; and those to whom God says, thy will be done."
If you're suggesting that only a being who has sinned can ultimately understand this embodiment, then logic dictates that God too must have sinned somewhere along the line (creating us, perhaps?) since he understands it already.
Yeah no... not sure where you're getting that from. I'm suggesting that only through free will can one enter into a meaningful relationship with God. However, because of this free will, (and Adam's sin nature) we will sin. that's what I'm suggesting.
The second part of your response doesn't answer the question. I didn't ask you what you believe; I asked you what you know. A belief is merely having faith in something you're not sure about.
You are correct. I'm sorry I used the word belief. I know that the Bible is true by the self-authenticating witness of the Holy Spirit. Before you say, "well how do you know it's real? or well other religions experience things similar to Christians claims about the Holy Spirit" I will say, I know it is true because it is self-authenticating. However, you do not know that I am having a self-authenticating experience. You would have to experience it yourself. The best I can do is to give you arguments and evidence for Christianity and pray that you respond to the call of the Holy Spirit.
Just a note, I don't necessarily agree with the concept of good and evil. I'm simply discussing this issue utilizing your terminology.
Be careful when you throw around words such as good and evil. Those words presuppose the existence of God. In fact, if God does not exist then you can make no moral judgments about anyone or anything. all moral truths are relative